“You need to love your customers if you want to run a business. Love like Christ loved us.”

Dr. Brian Engelland

WHO IS DR. BRIAN ENGELLAND?

Dr. Brian Engelland is professor emeritus at two universities – Mississippi State University and most recently, The Catholic University of America. He is widely published in the fields of management, marketing and business ethics.

His research interests include the application of Catholic ideas and principles to the conduct of business. Recent publications include Force for Good: The Catholic Guide to Business Integrity, a book published by Sophia Institute Press; “Consumerism, Marketing, and the Cardinal Virtues,” an article which appeared in the Journal of Markets and Morality; and “Team-Building, Virtue and Personal Flourishing in Organizations,” the first chapter in Personal Flourishing in Organizations, published by Springer.

Engelland is recipient of the Society for Marketing Advances’ Lifetime Contributor to Marketing Award, a fellow of the Marketing Management Association, and a past winner of the National Best Teacher in Marketing Award. At The Catholic University of America, he held the Edward J. Pryzbyla Chair in Business and Economics.

His prior managerial experience includes serving as dean of the Busch School of Business at Catholic University, president of Engelland and Associates, a marketing consulting company, and as chief marketing officer for Eljer Industries.

Dr. Engelland holds a bachelor’s degree from Purdue University, an MBA from the University of Cincinnati, and a doctorate in business from Southern Illinois University. Engelland is a Fourth Degree member of the Knights of Columbus and a Knight Grand Cross in the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem.

Developing Integrity & Virtue in Business

In this episode, Dr. Brian Engelland talks about developing integrity and virtue in business. He explains:
– Is it possible to be successful and have integrity?
– Why is virtue important in business?
– What are the 3 virtues required to run a business?
– What steps can we take to develop integrity?
– Where or to whom do we turn to when we don’t know what to do and have to make ethical decisions?

When I saw this book on the must read book list I was surprised to find this book. As a Christian, my grandfather always believed that it was impossible to be a Christian and be successful at business. Yet, here was someone who had done it himself and also taught other people to do it.

I was intrigued. I wrote to the Professor but I thought it was a long shot. As we prayed for a guest for this episode, Dr. Engelland replied and the episode was so informative.

As a business owner myself, I’ve struggled with many aspects of running a business. Even my professional life. And that’s what he mentions, “Christians are living divided lives.”

True in many ways.

Giveaway

He goes on to list the 3 basic virtues you need to run a business as a Christian. They are:

• Love

• Justice

• Prudence

Additionally, I love how he explains with examples of various businesses and how they managed developing integrity & virtue in business. However, you can’t do it alone. He talks about how a business owner might be making as many as 500 business decisions per day. Surprisingly, small business owners are no different.

Everyday you have to choose. The question is how do you incorporate your faith so that your business is an extension of your Christian life.

Dr. Brian Engelland is giving away a free signed copy of his book Force for Good. All you need to do for a free copy, simply let us know one thing you do to incorporate integrity and your Christian faith in your business or workplace in the comments below.

ENJOYED THIS PODCAST?

We hope you enjoyed this podcast. Check out our podcasts on St Thomas Aquinas and Anger. Finally, if you liked this podcast, like us, leave us a comment and share our episodes on social media with those who may benefit from it. If there is a particular saint that you would like to hear about us, tell us and we’ll add him or her to our future episodes.

We are on iheartradio, Stitcher, Itunes, Spotify, Pandora and tunein.com. We’d love to hear from you. If you hear us online, please rate and review us.

Episode Transcript

Pam: Welcome to a new episode of the “Christian Circle Podcast.” And today we have a very special guest. Dr. Brian Engelland is actually going to talk to us about ethics in business and integrity in business as a Christian.

So, Dr. Brian, tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry.

Dr. Engelland: Well, thank you, Pam. God has blessed me with having two careers. First, I had a career in business in which I was a product development executive and I worked for [inaudible 00:00:25] operations and had the opportunity to introduce over 300 new products and services during my period of years. So I got a lot of emphasis on figuring out what people needed and how we could [inaudible 00:00:40] businesses that I was working for could meet those needs with new products that were effective. And my second career then was to basically tell students how to do these kinds of things. So I became a college professor. And that’s been my second career.

I’m a lifelong Catholic. And I get lots of good advice from my family members. My wife is a theology major. She was a theology major, and so she can give me all sorts of good advice in terms of theological type issues. My oldest daughter is a religion teacher. My youngest daughter is a Carmelite nun. So, again, I’ve got more theology there. And [inaudible 00:01:21] is a professor of philosophy. And so he kind of keeps me appraised of philosophical kinds of issues. My wife and I have traveled fairly extensively. I taught in Washington, DC, in Grenoble, France, also in Rome, Italy. We’ve traveled to 32 different countries, mostly to see Catholic shrines and holy places. And now, currently, I’m a professor emeritus at the Catholic University of America. I keep busy by giving some lectures, doing some writing, occasionally teaching a class. And all of these things I’m really concerned about is how can we integrate Catholic ideas, Catholic values more effectively in the way that we conduct business?

Pam: So I actually came across your book, “Force for Good,” which was listed on one of the 50 must-read books for Catholics currently. And I was quite surprised that, you know, I found a book on business because usually we don’t find the Christian way of life incorporated into work. It’s just so separate. So when you wrote this book, the first thing that I would like to know is,

is it possible to really be successful and have this integrity, have these Christian values at the same time?

Dr. Engelland: I think it’s a fair question. I think it is one to be concerned about. After all, a lot of times, when we think of the path that Christ recommend we follow, it seems to be the antithesis of business. I mean, he was the one that threw the money changers out of the temple. So there’s this sense that oh, “Well, business has gone over the deep end.” You [inaudible 00:03:06] a good Christian and be a good businessman at the same time. There’s two sides to this thing that I’d like to develop. There’s two goods in business. You can be good at what you do, that means you’re really effective at it, that you’re in demand because you can market new products effectively. So you can be good at it. But then the other thing is that what you do is good for the world. In other words, it answers the need of how do you love one another in the marketplace. So there’s those two goods that you try to achieve.

Example of Integrity in Business

I would like to give you an example of one firm that I came across that I think does a pretty good job of this. And that one’s called Deep River Snacks. They make potato chips and snack foods. So the CEO of this fairly small business is very committed to this whole idea of doing good in society in addition to making snacks and doing a good job of making a product for his customers. And so what he’s done is he’s pledged 10% of his profits to be devoted to charitable organizations.

What he did is he asked each of his employees to nominate a charitable organization. So everybody who has a favorite charitable organization brought it forward, and they arranged them to give, you know, the money that they earn, the business earns, you know, a portion of it to these charitable organizations.

So what this does is it helps the employee, you know, really part of the business and they want the business to do well so that their charity will do well as well. The other thing that they did is, of course, you design packages and there’s a lot of space on the package, you know, for labeling kinds of things and to the required information that the Food and Drug Administration requires about products. So there were some extra space on this. So in each package, they put an advertisement for one of these charities that they’re giving money to. When I buy chips from Deep River Snacks, I’ll see what particular charity they happen to be pushing on this particular package. And then I might be motivated to also donate to that company as well…not that company, that organization, that charity.

So here’s an organization, Deep River Snacks, that’s done a very good job of kind of integrating this whole idea of bringing customers and employees together towards doing something really good for the world, in addition to making a product that, you know, satisfies people’s hunger.

Pam: So, since it’s possible, yes, to be successful and have integrity, so as a business owner today,

what steps can we take, you know, to develop this integrity, especially in business?

Dr. Engelland: I’d like to start to answer that question with Pope John Paul II. And at one point in time during his life, St. Paul suggested that one of the big challenges we have in the world is that Christians are living a divided life. And what did he mean by divided life? Well, this meant that, yeah, when they went to mass, they were model Christians. But the rest of the time, they were living life like anybody else in society.

There was nothing there that you could point to to say, “Well, this is really a Christian living like a Christian.” And so what we find is that many people acquiesce to society’s requirements and day-to-day life and they don’t act, they don’t behave with their strongly-held Christian values in every aspect of their life. So we in effect almost live like a two-faced individual, like a Jekyll and Hyde. And I think one of the reasons for this is that in society today, we have so much understanding of relativism, this idea that one person has an idea what’s right, another person has an idea of a right, they conflict with each other but both are entitled to their opinion, both entitled to their own [inaudible 00:07:22], we’re not going to ask one to discuss with the other to try to get this reason. In effect, we all kind of withdraw into a little bit of a cocoon and we don’t engage with other people who have different ideas.

And what this does, as Pope Benedict describes, is this is the dictatorship of relativism, the dictatorship of relativism, because it dictates then that we don’t discuss and we don’t learn from each other. What we end up doing then, in a business environment, is that we end up…when we see something that’s not going quite right, we shut up. We engage in what they call ethical muteness.

We don’t want to step out of the norm, so to speak, and point out, “Oh, wait a minute, we’re doing something that’s going wrong here,” or, “Isn’t there a better way to do this?” And because we don’t call attention to it, it may be something on the front of everybody else’s mind. But everybody else is sitting with the same idea that, “Well, the boss said this. We’re not going to say anything.” And yet we end up with the business doing the wrong thing because we haven’t said something.

So that’s ethical muteness. In other words, it’s ethical myopia.

We get loaned into this sense that, well, ethics really doesn’t count in this organization, our strongly held Christian values that we have don’t count, so we’re just gonna withhold those things and we’ll kind of go along with the flow of, you know, ride down the river with the current so to speak.

This can be very costly for an organization. We see lots of situations where the organization does something wrong. And yet, there were people that knew that it was wrong and if they raised their hand and said, “Wait a minute, there’s a better way,” or, “Why are we doing this?” it would have saved that organization lots of potential money. I’m thinking of Volkswagen and the way that they had that crazy situation where they were cheating on the fuel tests for the diesel-fueled vehicles. And, of course, that got them caught and they lost a heck of a lot of money and market share as a result. But there were people in the organization that raised their hand and said, “Wait a minute, this is the wrong direction.” It would have saved the organization a great deal of efforts and pain later.

So I think the important thing here is that integrity requires that we live out these strongly held beliefs every day of our lives. Not only does the individual live out those beliefs, but the business as well. And so businesses can have integrity, this idea of doing the right thing day after day even when it’s difficult to do so. That’s what we’re talking about when we say integrity. In order to get integrity…so now we get to this thing, what steps can we take to develop integrity in our business? The first thing is that the executives, the leader, the proprietor needs to identify those priorities, those values that they want to uphold in that organization, have that communicated to the employees so that the employees and that they know. Here’s what we’re talking about to be this culture in this business, to do these things, to be a good individual, to be a good company.

Example 2 of Integrity in Business

All right, let me give you an example. There’s a bakery, LaVallee’s [SP] Bakery up in Boston. And the first thing he did when he started his bakery, he said, “I’ve got 12 values that I want to ensure that happen every day. And I want to post these, you know, in fact on the doors so they can come in to the…” you know, where the production workers come in to the bakery.

So here’s the 12 values that he selected.

1. Trust and respect for one another.
2. Teamwork.
3. Empowerment to make a difference.
4. Personal growth, the idea that each individual that works there should be given the opportunity to grow in their abilities and, you know, the person’s.
5. Five, enthusiasm.
6. Customer service with a smile, always have a smile on your face when you’re serving with the customer.
7. Commitment to overcoming obstacles to great work.
8. Dependability.
9. High quality.
10. Efficiency.
11. Advance preparation towards meetings and make product changes and that kind of thing.
12. And then safety. So he said, “These are our dozen, the LaVallee dozen.”

And, of course, what he did is he then put in procedures and standards to try to back up each of these overall goals for his organization. Then he put into place training for all of the employees. And by doing that, he ended up with an organization that is an organization of integrity, one that satisfies customers, is very successful as a bakery and does good for its workers and customer.

Pam: I know you mentioned also safety. And since I’m in the healthcare field, I think that’s important. In businesses today, especially in healthcare, you’ll hear a lot of times, you know, “Okay, what’s the problem with cutting corners?” or the risk is we have to take this risk in order to provide this benefit. You’ll hear the risk-benefit ratio often.

So why is it really important to have virtue in business instead of just doing what all the other MBA programs they’re teaching us in business?

Dr. Engelland: Great question. So I read a study at one point in time a couple years back that the average leader, you know, the business executive has to make about 500 decisions each day. These decisions are big decisions and little decisions, decisions about what do I say to this customer? How do I price this product? You know, do I have another cup of coffee now or do I wait later, you know? When you think about it, 500 questions in a day, boy, I’ll tell you, just about every minute there’s another decision to make.

And what we do to be efficient at this, and we realize that we can’t be 100% right every time, that’s pretty unusual. We talked about it in sports. You know, a Major League Baseball batter is really good if he can hit, you know, 30% of the time, get a hit 30% of the time he threw up a bat, let alone 100%. But how do we improve that?

And so one way to do that is to develop good habits, in other words virtues. And when we do this, we make ourselves much more efficient, you know, because we have in our mind, “Here’s how I handle this situation. Here’s what I do. You know, I’m going to limit myself to one cup of coffee so I don’t get too frittered…” You end up with a virtue of moderation, I guess, is what you’re doing and in practice making.

So when you act virtually, I think more than anything else you build trust in the people that you deal with. You build trust with your employees, you build trust with customers. And trusting relationships in business are what makes business successful. You don’t buy from somebody that you don’t trust, you know. I mean, as a customer, you don’t buy from somebody that you don’t trust. So the person that you trust, the individual that comes across is trusting because they seem to exhibit virtues and that my past dealings with him have always come out right that I’m going to, you know, want to continue to do business with that particular individual or that particular company.

Now, when you build trust you also build brand loyalty. I’m talking about you and say the company or the organization builds brand loyalty. There’s lots of benefits to brand loyalty. One of the big benefits is it cuts down on customer acquisition costs and customer replacement costs. Businesses are all about this because a great deal of turnover in their customer base all the time, then they’ve got to constantly be advertising, promoting, and trying to bring in new customers. This is an expensive process. It’s much better to build on the customers that you already have, keep them really satisfied, keep them loyal, and keep them coming back. You do that with trust. And of course, virtue is how you can build trust.

Example 3

You know, a good example of this is a company called Children First. It’s a daycare center. And what they did is they said, “We want to be really good. But in order to be really good, we need to know what our customers really want us to be.” So they asked a lot of potential customers, “What do you look for in our center?” And what they did is they came up with five virtues.

Those virtues were they like to see, you know, a daycare center that exhibits patience, optimism, commitment, and perseverance. So if you do this for your own business, you’ll probably find it’s a different combination of virtues. But it worked. This five-set was the ones that they thought, “My golly, this is going to work for us.” Then what they did is they put together training sessions for all their employees so that the employees knew what the virtue of, you know, patience is all about, and how you develop this virtue, and how you show this virtue to customers, you know, in your day to day operations.

And so there was a series of training and development activities, and, you know, best success stories from each employee of how they were working on tolerance, “And here’s how I was managed to really get that tolerance out and really going for me.” And what this did is it built the whole organization up. Then they did a customer survey afterwards. And they said, “What are the virtues you see represented in our organization?” And by golly, the research showed that those same five virtues were the things that customers were seeing. So they were successful in building virtue into their company. And obviously, that’s a workable solution.

Pam: So you would say that these same five virtues will apply to any business or anyone running a business, right?

Dr. Engelland: I think there’s going to be different virtues in general for different organizations. You know, if you’re running a medical office, you’re a physician, the virtues that you supply, or provide, or show off, so to speak, you develop will probably be different for somebody than somebody that runs a restaurant or, you know, provides a law practice, for instance, although there’s probably more similarity between a medical practitioner and a law professional than there is between somebody who is maybe repairing automobiles or, you know, whatever the business is.

Pam: So it’s up to the proprietor, the individual to discern and pray what the basic virtue should be to run their business and then teach it to their staff and across all their vendors or whoever they’re doing this business.

Dr. Engelland: So that’s correct. Although I would argue that there are probably some basic virtues that are really important. You know, if you start listing virtues, you can come up with over 100 I think. One of my friends developed a list of over 100 virtues. I mean, the ancient Greeks, you know, they had the cardinal virtues, you know, prudence, justice, moderation, and courage. And then, of course, St. Thomas Aquinas, he asked for the theological virtues, faith, hope, and charity or love. And then there’s basic Christian virtues like honesty, magnanimity, that’s a good management virtue, humility, effectiveness.

And he was asking each one of us to do the same thing. It’s a sacrificial love. We sacrifice what we have, our treasures, our time, our talents. We sacrifice those to help somebody else. This is what love is all about. You need to love your customers, if you’re going to run a business. If you hate your customers, you won’t be successful no matter what you do in terms of technology, you know, quality of equipment, and everything else. You get that love has to come through because individuals just aren’t going to deal with somebody that hates them. I mean, you know, it’s that kind of thing. Yeah.

Now, in order to love one another, the church has put together this idea of Catholic social teaching. So they define four different requirements to love. One is human dignity, this whole idea that everyone is important, people are much more important than things. The second is solidarity, the idea that to love one another is we need to look out for people when they need help and lend them a helping hand. The third is subsidiarity, this idea that each individual is so important they have a freewill and they have the ability to decide for themselves and we should not force our understandings and force them to make a particular decision in our favor, or what we think should happen.

They have the freedom, and they should have that personal responsibility to, you know, make their own decisions on what they want and what they need. Okay, and then the fourth one is common good. And the common good is this whole idea that we need to be thinking about helping society get uplifted and grow and flourish. So those are the four characteristics that really define this idea of Christian love.

Our business needs to have those things going in their direction, if they’re going to be effective. Second, of course, is justice. And of course, as we know, without justice, there can be no peace. You know, I’ve always thought that if we don’t have peace in our workforce, we’re going to have an awfully difficult time to get anything done, you know. And so, justice is really important in these things, looking out for justice, the just thing to do, the fair thing to do, the right thing to do.

And then third, prudence, this whole idea if you’re going to be a baker, you better know the baking business and what it takes to make a good product, you know. Prudence is practical wisdom, how do you deal with people effectively? What motivates people? How does all of this work in order to make a business that functions effectively so that it comes back tomorrow and there’s still customers and there’s still work to be done so it can continue on. Love, justice, prudence are three requirements.

Example 3 of Integrity in Business

If you like another example, I think this is a beautiful example, and it’s a common example, it’s a company called Rosa’s Fresh Pizza. And it was a young man, aged 25, Mason Wartman who started this business, and all he wanted to do was sell individual slices of pizza and he built this thing, started a restaurant in a fairly rough section of Philadelphia. And unfortunately, he opens his doors and what’s he see?

Some homeless people, some people who are down and out, people who are hungry, and they’re coming and asking for a free handout. In fact, it’s kind of clogging up the restaurant, all of these people asking for free. And, you know, he didn’t have room for paying customers to come in. What the heck does he do? I think the common response to this is, “Oh, we can’t have this riffraff in here. We’ll call the police, get them to escort all these people out because it’s disrupting the business operation.” But that’s not what he did.

What he did is he came up with the idea of asking his paying customers to pay a little bit more and buy a piece of pizza or, you know, a slice of pizza for someone else, who needed one, who was hungry but who could not afford. And the way he did this, basically was kind of a buy forward, a buy a piece forward, or a slice forward thing. He just started out with Post-it notes. And the individual who paid the extra money to buy the slice for someone who couldn’t afford it could write out a little promotional message, you know, like, “God bless you. Here’s a free slice,” on a Post-it note. And then they started hanging these Post-it notes all over the walls of the restaurant.

Well, after a few weeks, every nook and cranny of the walls of the restaurant are full of Post-it notes. And when people come in, who can’t afford it, they can run up, grab a note, and get three slices of pizza. This became kind of a promotional thing for him. It became the Post-it note pizza place. And I think he’s now got two more locations, all built upon the same philosophy. And it was based upon this idea of, all right, how do we love these people who aren’t even customers? How do we provide justice for people, you know? How do you make this all work, you know, the prudence kind of a thing?

And, you know, what really made this work, he realized, is that a lot of people don’t have the opportunity to exercise charity, Christian charity. It was an opportunity that, “Gee, you know, rather than send some money to someplace and somewhere else, I can help somebody locally that’s having a hard time right now by buying them a slice of pizza,” you know. That’s what made that idea work. A lot of businesses, when they think about virtue, can think about ways like that, that they can really add something special about their business. And it’s business that will help them grow and be successful, I would recommend that aisle.

Pam: It’s a good thing that you pointed out that example because I’m sure when he was making those decisions, they would have been very hard decisions to make, right, very difficult decisions, especially during the initial period when he had all these people coming in?

Dr. Engelland: That’s for sure, right. What do you do, you know? “I need to sell. It doesn’t help to have people that can’t afford to buy my slice.” You’re right.

Pam: So, when you have these hard decisions, I know a lot of people will say, “You know, you can turn to God and pray.” And then yes, he does provide answers. And usually, he does provide them to people.

But where do you turn or whom do you turn to when you don’t know what to do and when you have these hard decisions to make?

Dr. Engelland: I think a lot of times the proprietor of the business is often this person in the room. I mean, it just kind of happens, you know, you’re in a room full of employees, you happen to be…and of course, this idea of being the smartest person in the room isn’t a very good idea sometimes because we get kind of full of ourselves, and consequently we don’t listen.

So the important thing is to be able to read people and listen because not every time do we have all the answers ourselves. It’s important to hear what people have to say about what we’re planning to do and what we’re doing. My wife helps me a great deal on these kinds of things. Sometimes, I’ll write something and then I’ll think, “Is this what I want to say?” I grab my wife, Barbara, and she’ll look at it and say, “No, you missed the point. They’re going to think at it this way.” I’m, “Yeah, okay. You’re right.”

And so I think it’s important then to seek out assistance and help from others. The most important one is from God, you know. And I always start everything with prayer. I think that’s the right way to begin. And I think if you align yourself with God’s commandments, he’s not going to lead you in the wrong direction. He’s not going to take you down the wrong path. So that’s an important thing. And I think you have to listen to your conscience because if what you intend to do just really looks good on paper and it’s gonna make a lot of money, and maybe the ethical thing we won’t worry about, well, maybe you should re-look at that ethical thing.

So other people to talk to, I suppose, would be significant others, friends, colleagues. Talk to the people that work for you and get their honest opinion, ask for their honest opinion on things. You might go and see your priest, you know, the pastor. I mean, there are consultants that will provide some additional information for you and help you decide the correct direction. But I’m not sure that you have to go all the way to the consultant. Most people can find people they trust. It’s going to give them, you know, the right idea to get things moving in the right direction.

Pam: So I know the different organizations that have…like, I know for us, as doctors, we have the Catholic Medical Association, different organizations have different Catholic associations. Would that be a good idea for advice or for help?

Dr. Engelland: Certainly. The ones that I’m familiar with, the American Marketing Association, has an ethics group that I had at one point in time in my career. And what we did there is we published specific guidelines in terms of marketing products, what was ethical or what was not ethical.

The Marketing Research Association has very specific guidelines for how to conduct market research, especially the rights of individuals who participate in that research.

So those are specific guidelines. And I would certainly recommend that folks consult those guidelines. You can download them from the web, you know, search them out. But if you need more help, I think in the American Marketing Association situation, the only time we had…we didn’t have people coming and asking us for advice. What we had were situations where people are complaining that somebody wasn’t ethical and we’d have to kind of step in and decide that.

Pam: Thank you. Where can people find your book, “Force for Good?” And I should just remind people again that it’s one of the 50 must-read Catholic books right now. So where can people find you and your book in case they need advice, or if they need help for some reason and they want to reach out to you?

Dr. Engelland: Sure. So my book is called “Force for Good: The Catholic Guide to Business Integrity.” It was published by Sophia Institute Press. They’re up in New Hampshire, Nashua, New Hampshire. So you can certainly go to Sophia. And I think they’ve got a sale on this book at this time. So it’s really priced right. The other thing is, you can certainly go to amazon.com if you want to do that. They sell that book as well.

I think the other thing that I’d like to comment on, you know, in closing is that in addition to my book, in terms of guidance on this kind of thing, the work of the Busch School of Business at the Catholic University of America, it’s first-class. And of course, I’ve been involved with that for a number of years. So we teach all of these things much more effective about it today. So if you know someone that wants to study business, the Busch School of Business at Catholic University is a really good place to study. And thank you, Pam. It’s been a good 30 minutes.

Pam: Thank you for being on our podcast and talking to us about this subject. And there are a few people who are talking about it right now. So it was great having you. And are you on social media that people can reach out to you?

Dr. Engelland: Well, I don’t do that. I am very happy to let others like and do that kind of thing.

Pam: Okay, all right. So, thank you for being with us in this podcast and talking to us.

Dr. Engelland: Very good. Thank you very much. God bless you. God bless all your ministry. I mean, I’m just amazed at all you’re involved with based upon what I see on the website.

Pam: Thank you so much.

Dr. Engelland: I don’t know how you keep up with all of that and write as well. A lot of times when you’re writing you have some clear time that’s not, you know…

Pam: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Engelland: Yeah, God bless you.